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	<title>Comments on: Of Freewill: An Exposition of the LBCF IX</title>
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		<title>By: Robert Gonzales and the LBCF on Free Will &#171; The Lighthearted Calvinist</title>
		<link>http://blog.rbseminary.org/2009/07/of-freewill-an-exposition-of-the-lbcf-ix/comment-page-1/#comment-2809</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Gonzales and the LBCF on Free Will &#171; The Lighthearted Calvinist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 05:18:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rbseminary.org/?p=1272#comment-2809</guid>
		<description>[...] Of Freewill: An Exposition of the LBCF IX [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Of Freewill: An Exposition of the LBCF IX [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin</title>
		<link>http://blog.rbseminary.org/2009/07/of-freewill-an-exposition-of-the-lbcf-ix/comment-page-1/#comment-2781</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 00:20:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rbseminary.org/?p=1272#comment-2781</guid>
		<description>You see, my brother?  Here you are with your beguiling invitations trying to pull me back into the fray.  No, but in all seriousness, I want to apologize to you.  Although I tried to type my comment in gracious though honest terms, I wonder if there was much profit in posting as I did.  You have been ever the patient and generous host and I do not want to make a nuisance of myself.  It is simply that this topic has been of real importance to me for many years and I think it is too often handled without adequate consideration.  Yet, you did not neglect the Word and tried to remain firmly within the boundaries of Reformed thinking.  You even offered a suggestive way of resolving the tension between what appears to be the kind of impossibility of every natural man to fully repent and the possibilities inherent to human nature.  I can see you were seeking to be true to conscience and the brilliant work of so many who lived and thought before you.

Perhaps I am simply being arrogant, but I think there is a better answer.  As for &quot;mystery,&quot; I do not see that this necesarily represents an area of our understanding that is clouded due to sin.  I agree with you that &quot;mystery&quot; is inevitable with GOD at some point as He cannot be comprehended, in the strict sense of that word.

My problem rests in two things: 1) first, in declaring &quot;mystery&quot; in an objective sense far too early.  It is akin to the arrogance of a scholar scouring the Bible for an answer to a particular question and, in that moment when he has run out of answers and sits defeated and dejected, raises his nose from the page to insist that it must be impossible for anyone to discover it.  It&#039;s a &quot;mystery.&quot;  Well, he can speak for himself, but it hardly stands that this represents a &quot;mystery&quot; to everyone, as hard as it might be to imagine that anyone could discern what he failed to or even what a handful of brilliant minds failed to uncover. 2) second, in the love of &quot;mystery&quot; as a bright patch to cover a portion of the tattered quilt of error.  I do not think you resort to this, but when certain people find themselves at the end of the tether of their impoverished ideologies, rather than admit that they are staring into a blank wall, they declare a holiday and call it &quot;mystery.&quot;

I know that you legitimately want to preserve, as do I really, the profound nature of our faith and an expansive vision of our LORD at the heart of it.  Your use of &quot;mystery&quot; does not strike me as the latter kind and hardly bears any resemblance even to the former.  I think, rather, that you (with a pressing and delicate schedule of responsibilities) have simply repeated the conviction of men whom you trust.

So, in hopes that I do not stink of pride, I simply wish to say that I choose to take the path less travelled by and perhaps the difference it makes will be more pleasing to our precious Christ.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You see, my brother?  Here you are with your beguiling invitations trying to pull me back into the fray.  No, but in all seriousness, I want to apologize to you.  Although I tried to type my comment in gracious though honest terms, I wonder if there was much profit in posting as I did.  You have been ever the patient and generous host and I do not want to make a nuisance of myself.  It is simply that this topic has been of real importance to me for many years and I think it is too often handled without adequate consideration.  Yet, you did not neglect the Word and tried to remain firmly within the boundaries of Reformed thinking.  You even offered a suggestive way of resolving the tension between what appears to be the kind of impossibility of every natural man to fully repent and the possibilities inherent to human nature.  I can see you were seeking to be true to conscience and the brilliant work of so many who lived and thought before you.</p>
<p>Perhaps I am simply being arrogant, but I think there is a better answer.  As for &#8220;mystery,&#8221; I do not see that this necesarily represents an area of our understanding that is clouded due to sin.  I agree with you that &#8220;mystery&#8221; is inevitable with GOD at some point as He cannot be comprehended, in the strict sense of that word.</p>
<p>My problem rests in two things: 1) first, in declaring &#8220;mystery&#8221; in an objective sense far too early.  It is akin to the arrogance of a scholar scouring the Bible for an answer to a particular question and, in that moment when he has run out of answers and sits defeated and dejected, raises his nose from the page to insist that it must be impossible for anyone to discover it.  It&#8217;s a &#8220;mystery.&#8221;  Well, he can speak for himself, but it hardly stands that this represents a &#8220;mystery&#8221; to everyone, as hard as it might be to imagine that anyone could discern what he failed to or even what a handful of brilliant minds failed to uncover. 2) second, in the love of &#8220;mystery&#8221; as a bright patch to cover a portion of the tattered quilt of error.  I do not think you resort to this, but when certain people find themselves at the end of the tether of their impoverished ideologies, rather than admit that they are staring into a blank wall, they declare a holiday and call it &#8220;mystery.&#8221;</p>
<p>I know that you legitimately want to preserve, as do I really, the profound nature of our faith and an expansive vision of our LORD at the heart of it.  Your use of &#8220;mystery&#8221; does not strike me as the latter kind and hardly bears any resemblance even to the former.  I think, rather, that you (with a pressing and delicate schedule of responsibilities) have simply repeated the conviction of men whom you trust.</p>
<p>So, in hopes that I do not stink of pride, I simply wish to say that I choose to take the path less travelled by and perhaps the difference it makes will be more pleasing to our precious Christ.</p>
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		<title>By: deangonzales</title>
		<link>http://blog.rbseminary.org/2009/07/of-freewill-an-exposition-of-the-lbcf-ix/comment-page-1/#comment-2779</link>
		<dc:creator>deangonzales</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 19:02:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rbseminary.org/?p=1272#comment-2779</guid>
		<description>Benjamin,

Thanks for your gracious yet not uncritical comments. I always welcome any sharpening from the brethren. Yet you are correct that we two have some unfinished business elsewhere on this blog. If only there were 48 hours in a day!

It seems that you think my use of the term &quot;mystery&quot; above was unwarranted. It also seems, and I could be wrong, that you view mysteries as areas of our understanding that are clouded due to sin but which may be cleared up after more study, reflection, sanctification, and prayer. (Correct me if I&#039;m wrong.)

I presently relate mystery not merely to man&#039;s fallen mind but to his finiteness. That is, since God and his ways are infinite and since all of divine and created reality are interrelated, then I cannot see how the human mind will every get its hands around everything about God and his ways. Have you already read James Anderson&#039;s &lt;em&gt;Paradox in Christian Theology&lt;/em&gt; (Paternoster, 2007)? Paul Helm has written a positive review: &lt;a href=&quot;http://paulhelmsdeep.blogspot.com/2009/06/paradox-and-mystery.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Paradox and Mystery&lt;/a&gt;. I&#039;d be interested to hear your opinion of the book. 

Feel free to offer a criticism of Murray&#039;s explanation of the &quot;pychogenetic problem&quot; connected with Adam&#039;s fall if you wish. 

Your servant,
Bob Gonzales</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Benjamin,</p>
<p>Thanks for your gracious yet not uncritical comments. I always welcome any sharpening from the brethren. Yet you are correct that we two have some unfinished business elsewhere on this blog. If only there were 48 hours in a day!</p>
<p>It seems that you think my use of the term &#8220;mystery&#8221; above was unwarranted. It also seems, and I could be wrong, that you view mysteries as areas of our understanding that are clouded due to sin but which may be cleared up after more study, reflection, sanctification, and prayer. (Correct me if I&#8217;m wrong.)</p>
<p>I presently relate mystery not merely to man&#8217;s fallen mind but to his finiteness. That is, since God and his ways are infinite and since all of divine and created reality are interrelated, then I cannot see how the human mind will every get its hands around everything about God and his ways. Have you already read James Anderson&#8217;s <em>Paradox in Christian Theology</em> (Paternoster, 2007)? Paul Helm has written a positive review: <a href="http://paulhelmsdeep.blogspot.com/2009/06/paradox-and-mystery.html" rel="nofollow">Paradox and Mystery</a>. I&#8217;d be interested to hear your opinion of the book. </p>
<p>Feel free to offer a criticism of Murray&#8217;s explanation of the &#8220;pychogenetic problem&#8221; connected with Adam&#8217;s fall if you wish. </p>
<p>Your servant,<br />
Bob Gonzales</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin</title>
		<link>http://blog.rbseminary.org/2009/07/of-freewill-an-exposition-of-the-lbcf-ix/comment-page-1/#comment-2776</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 17:04:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rbseminary.org/?p=1272#comment-2776</guid>
		<description>I love you brother for the rich mercies of Christ in you and the royal lineage you belong to and I think you have given an exposition of this subject which is, no doubt, faithful in virtually every respect to the intentions of the authors of the 1689 confession.  I also appreciate that your position is probably the one more often touted by Calvinists today, yet I must say that, in certain important respects, I am forced to disavow this public analysis you have offered and deny it as muddled thinking in hopes that others will reconsider this traditional way of addressing so important an issue.  There are certainly details where more work needs to be done but, thankfully, the brethren have no real need to heft around the &quot;mysteries&quot; that you have chosen to bear and defend because of certain awkward assumptions you&#039;ve carried for too long.

But this comment is not intended as the crack of a starter&#039;s pistol to launch into polemics on this issue until we have finished our &lt;a href=&quot;http://blog.rbseminary.org/2009/06/does-god-want-sinners-to-comply-with-his-law-and-his-gospel/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;previous exchange&lt;/a&gt; on GOD&#039;s desires, whether they are in confict or no.  I have no desire to distract you from that discussion with a conversation that would be equally absorbing (if not more so).  My point here is simply to say that one can be a fervent Calvinist and a compatibilist and yet disagree with important aspects of your analysis of human nature and freedom, of &quot;ability,&quot; of the impetus of depraved choices and GOD&#039;s relation to them and of the pre-fallen nature of our first human parents so that the &quot;mystery&quot; of much of this is helpfully dissolved.

Others, no doubt, will give their warm and convicted agreement with what you have said here and I welcome their reasons and point of view.  Indeed, I readily admit that you have paraded by an admirable column of Scripture references which appear to clinch the point.  I ask only what I imagine Dr. Gonzales would ask with a full heart, that our brothers and sisters who may read this think more deeply on these questions and examine the Scriptural teaching in totality, not remaining comfortable with &quot;mystery,&quot; which signifies a theological blind spot, but for the sake of ourselves and others to responsibly discern the proper balance of teachings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love you brother for the rich mercies of Christ in you and the royal lineage you belong to and I think you have given an exposition of this subject which is, no doubt, faithful in virtually every respect to the intentions of the authors of the 1689 confession.  I also appreciate that your position is probably the one more often touted by Calvinists today, yet I must say that, in certain important respects, I am forced to disavow this public analysis you have offered and deny it as muddled thinking in hopes that others will reconsider this traditional way of addressing so important an issue.  There are certainly details where more work needs to be done but, thankfully, the brethren have no real need to heft around the &#8220;mysteries&#8221; that you have chosen to bear and defend because of certain awkward assumptions you&#8217;ve carried for too long.</p>
<p>But this comment is not intended as the crack of a starter&#8217;s pistol to launch into polemics on this issue until we have finished our <a href="http://blog.rbseminary.org/2009/06/does-god-want-sinners-to-comply-with-his-law-and-his-gospel/" rel="nofollow">previous exchange</a> on GOD&#8217;s desires, whether they are in confict or no.  I have no desire to distract you from that discussion with a conversation that would be equally absorbing (if not more so).  My point here is simply to say that one can be a fervent Calvinist and a compatibilist and yet disagree with important aspects of your analysis of human nature and freedom, of &#8220;ability,&#8221; of the impetus of depraved choices and GOD&#8217;s relation to them and of the pre-fallen nature of our first human parents so that the &#8220;mystery&#8221; of much of this is helpfully dissolved.</p>
<p>Others, no doubt, will give their warm and convicted agreement with what you have said here and I welcome their reasons and point of view.  Indeed, I readily admit that you have paraded by an admirable column of Scripture references which appear to clinch the point.  I ask only what I imagine Dr. Gonzales would ask with a full heart, that our brothers and sisters who may read this think more deeply on these questions and examine the Scriptural teaching in totality, not remaining comfortable with &#8220;mystery,&#8221; which signifies a theological blind spot, but for the sake of ourselves and others to responsibly discern the proper balance of teachings.</p>
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		<title>By: On Freewill: An Exposition of the LBCF IX</title>
		<link>http://blog.rbseminary.org/2009/07/of-freewill-an-exposition-of-the-lbcf-ix/comment-page-1/#comment-2773</link>
		<dc:creator>On Freewill: An Exposition of the LBCF IX</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 16:10:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rbseminary.org/?p=1272#comment-2773</guid>
		<description>[...] of the Second London Baptist Confession&#039;s teaching on this vital and controversial topic.   On Freewill: An Exposition of the LBCF IX  Your servant,   __________________ Bob Gonzales Jr., Dean Reformed Baptist Seminary Easley, South [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of the Second London Baptist Confession&#39;s teaching on this vital and controversial topic.   On Freewill: An Exposition of the LBCF IX  Your servant,   __________________ Bob Gonzales Jr., Dean Reformed Baptist Seminary Easley, South [...]</p>
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